Scott sat down with War on Women’s Shawna Potter to discuss the new documentary Safer Spaces (check out our review), activism, music and post-COVID touring.
Interview transcript
(This transcript has been edited for clarity)
The Live Wire: Hey everybody, Scott from The Live Wire, Australia here. I’m really excited today to be here talking with Shawna Potter. Shawna is the vocalist for the punk group War on Women. She’s also written a book called Making Spaces Safer, and is also the subject for a documentary called Safer Spaces [available now on Vimeo; coming soon to Amazon Prime] that we’re here to talk about today. Shawna, thanks so much for being here with us.
Shawna Potter: Thank you for having me!
LW: So first things first we’re here to talk primarily about the Safer Spaces documentary. I’ve never had a documentary made about me, [Both laugh] so I’m really curious about the process. So how did this all come about? Is it something that Bill [Fulkerson, Safer Spaces director] approached you for? Were you on the lookout for ways to promote your causes, or how did that all happen?
SP: No, not at all not even close and and you know, I’m not above trying to promote my message of feminism, right? Like whatever I can do to spread the word is good with me. But no, he saw that we were coming through town. He lives outside of Boston and we were on tour at some point and he saw that we were coming through town and asked if I would do an interview for this other documentary he was filming. And I said “sure” and so I showed up to the interview and it comprised of asking specific questions about the subject matter of that documentary and then also just kind of a “get to know you, tell us about yourself”. And you know, you do stuff like that knowing like they might not use it all, or you don’t know if they’ll use any of it.
And then later on in that year, maybe like three to six months later, we were coming back through and he was like “Cool. I need to interview War on Women again”. And our tour manager was letting us know that he wants to do an interview again. I was like, “oh, I guess he didn’t get everything he needed” and she was like “No, he wants to talk to Brooks”, the guitar player in our band. And I was like “Why? What does he have to do with it?”
And then it turned out that the interview was about me, and I literally found out that day! So long story short, he basically changed courses and decided to do something on me and I had no idea until it was time to do a supplemental interview with one of our guitar players and the owner of our record label Bridge Nine Records. And so it took me totally by surprise.
It’s very flattering. It’s very humbling, it’s a little embarrassing. But if more people get to learn about safer spaces and more people get to learn just a little about War on Women or me, that’s fine. It’s just super weird! Because I really didn’t know… I I didn’t know—but I was happy to partake in any promotion I could do. Unfortunately when it really started to pick up steam is when the pandemic hit and so of course he couldn’t really get it shown in as many places as he would have liked.
LW: I was going to ask what the experience of it making was like but you obviously had no idea that it was actually happening.
SP: For me it was just two interviews, that’s it!
LW: My next question is…you’re watching this and people that you’re really close to, Brooks and Chris, you’re hearing them talk about you in the third person. What’s that like, sort of finding out what people that you’re really close to you think about you, and how they perceive you?
SP: It’s wild. And I’m sure that if he found some other people they interview they wouldn’t necessarily say nice things, you know? [Laughs] Like I’m not so naive as to think everyone loves me or that I’m perfect because that’s certainly not the case, but I happen to know these two people don’t hate me. [Laughs]
They think I’m pretty cool but it is nice to hear reasons why…Because that’s not something that friends really tell each other all the time. Like we’re not always telling our friends all the things that we love about them, or admire or respect. So it was it was really lovely, and I never would have heard those things otherwise, unless someone was interviewing them and asking them specifically.
LW: Did you learn anything new about yourself while you watched the documentary back?
SP: You know, I think that something that is very common for people that do activism or are really politically engaged, or do social work, or something that really does try to help people and promotes progress… When you’re doing that work and you’re on the ground and you’re in it, you’re always thinking that you’re not doing enough, right? There’s this thing called “activist guilt” like you’re just not doing enough, and I think people can experience that a lot of different situations.
But it’s basically, it’s just really nice to sort of take a step back and look at some things that you have accomplished and actually just appreciate them… And take the win and celebrate the win and just just realise that all this work you’ve been doing, you get really tired and you get exhaustion from, that it does have an impact. And it can be helpful and it’s okay to take a break sometimes
LW: Around the documentary itself, I just wanted to say…I’ve seen it a few times, really enjoyed it. I also did a virtual watch party with one of my mates in Perth who also saw you guys
SP: Oh, cool!
LW: And they…hopefully they don’t mind me sharing this, but they said they were almost in tears throughout several parts of it…
SP: Ohhhh!
LW: And they said watching you made them realise “What the hell am I doing looking for work? I need to just start a band!”
[Both laugh]
LW: So I wanted to let you know, and also Bill as well, that this really impacted my good friend Amy. So yeah, this was really great.
SP: Lovely!
LW: So it was really great. I enjoyed it myself, and it was really great to see how it impacted them as well, being able to watch it.
SP: Thank you. Thank you very much.
LW: In the documentary one of the things you talked about was you had a couple of “Aha!” moments where you thought “Okay, as a woman, I don’t just have to be a singer like Whitney Houston—I can actually be in a band, play guitar and that sort of thing”. Do you remember if there was a similar moment that switched you on to the idea of activism and that “hey, I can make a difference” and “Okay, here’s a really crappy situation. I think I can make this better. I can help somehow”?
SP: Yeah, I think I came to my activist awakening, my political awakening, a little late. I was in my early to mid-20s and just kind of all of a sudden realising how the people in power were not actually serving the people.. the actual people that hire them, that pay for them with their taxes, right? And so it just kind of hit me like “Well, that’s not right! That’s not fair! Why are you making all these decisions without asking us, the people affected!?!”
But I still was kind of in a research phase. I still just realised “Well, I just need to read up about this theme. This is a big deal. Why isn’t anyone talking about this?” Which of course people were, but since I discovered it, but I thought no one else has thought of it, either.
And so I was just reading a lot and trying to get informed, but it wasn’t until I discovered the website Hollaback! that I got so fired up that I was like “I’m going to do something about this!” And so for anyone that doesn’t know, Hollaback! is a worldwide network of activists that raise awareness about street harassment, that help people figure out what to do in the moment whether they’re the person being harassed or they’re a bystander. It’s a resource, it’s a space to commiserate and vent and learn.
And once I found that site, I realised I wasn’t alone when it came to being harassed, which is a really isolating experience and at the time I didn’t feel like I had a community that I could talk with about it. But yeah, I just got so fired up and almost, like, vindicated. Like “Yeah, I’m not the only person that goes through this. What the hell!?! This is a terrible experience. Why are we putting up with this? Maybe we shouldn’t! I’m going to start my own Hollaback! site here in Baltimore!” So I did and and basically all of my activism is grown from there. That was my starting point.
So, it kind of started from a selfish place of being like, “I am dealing with sexism every day in public spaces—that’s not okay.” And then that goes to other people—and that’s not okay, either. And then that goes to all other marginalised groups.
You just keep learning and developing all these ideas that like, yeah, “I’m obviously not the centre of the universe”—again, this is my 20s!—I’m not the centre of the universe and other people experience hardship. And you know what, there’s something I can do about it and I can fight for them. They can fight for me, we can fight together— that’s the best way to win, and… I don’t know if that answered your question, but that’s the moment: of just reading other people’s stories and knowing that they’re going through the same thing as me. I just think it’s really important to know that.
LW: Now, let’s say there’s somebody who is at that similar point that you were in your early to mid-twenties. They’re saying “hey, I’m looking around at stuff that’s not quite right. I want to help but I’m not quite sure where to start”. What’s an easy way for somebody to get involved with activism that’s not going to make them feel like they need to chain themselves to trees right away, but that will give them enough positive feedback to make them think “Hey, that made a difference, I’m going to keep going with this”?
SP: There’s a lot of different ways to get involved and I think a lot of folks would say one way is to donate to your favourite causes which is hard for a lot of people in general, but it’s certainly hard right now to have spare money that you can donate. But if you have money to donate there are already great organisations around you that are doing good work, and why not support them?
If you have more time than money then you want to volunteer or at least just read up on what local organisations are doing in your town, like… who’s there? What causes are they interested in? What do they address? Who are they talking to, who are their networks? Do they hold meetings? Can you attend a meeting, do they do education? Can you learn from them? I think that it’s really beneficial to know what’s already going on in your community and see if you can’t be of help to something that’s already established. And then if you see a gap, then you can do your own thing or you can find other people to do it with you whatever but but, you know, it’s 2020. So there’s a lot of people that are addressing a lot of issues. There’s probably already something for the thing you care about. Can you be a part of that? Can you influence them? Can you make them even more progressive? How can you get involved with folks that have the network or the resources established?
Because I just like to remember that there’s always more to learn, especially when you’re just starting to have a political awakening, so to speak? There’s so many nuances that current media just doesn’t show you, right? Like we just can’t get all the nuances with social media and modern mainstream media.
So there’s so much to learn and the people that have already been doing the work are so valuable. They are a valuable resource that we should be taking advantage of, you know?
LW: You mentioned that you founded the Hollaback! space in Baltimore. And one of the things that Brooks alluded to in the documentary is that sometimes you’re not necessarily in the headspace to go out and meet fans after the show and that might be something that’s a bit difficult for you. If you’re somebody that’s wanting to build community and you feel like “Oh, I’m a bit withdrawn or introverted”. Is that something that you have any advice for, on how to work against that stuff and be able to work effectively anyway?
SP: Yeah, that’s really tough because,… he was right in the documentary—there are times where it’s really a conscious choice like “Okay, I gotta get out there. I got to talk to people”, and of course when I am it’s great, but I’d say that a lot of the time. I’m happy to do that. It’s not a problem at all. It’s not even a second thought. And so I find that I’m introverted in the way that that I recharge alone. Like, I want to be on the couch watching TV at night by myself, but that doesn’t mean I’m anti-social. It doesn’t mean I don’t love talking to people or that I have anxiety about it or anything like that.
And so if someone’s kind of coming from a shy, timid place or anxious place, I actually don’t know if I’m the best person to give advice, because it’s just not my experience. But I do acknowledge that it’s a real hurdle and it can be very difficult to make a connection sometimes. so I think if I can think about other members of the band and maybe other tactics I’ve seen, someone that’s a little more more timid or shy or doesn’t really want to talk in person, there’s a lot of opportunity right now to do that online, to chat online. To maybe run the social media—like maybe you’re the Twitter person in your band because it’s just easier for you to communicate and connect to people like that.
And even if you’re the singer, that might not be your role—so maybe it’s the bass player that goes out to the merch table and talks to people after the show. Like that’s totally fine. Your role in the band is not… you know, there’s a lot of different kinds of roles in bands and one is not always connected to another, and so just because you’re the singer doesn’t mean you have to be putting yourself out there a hundred percent vulnerable all the time, you know? You have to stay comfortable and happy and safe so that you can keep spreading a good message.
LW: You mentioned the band—I saw on Instagram that Dave [Cavalier—drums, War on Women] was shooting a couple music videos, or at least he posted about it. Is there anything you can tell us about the new album? If not, that’s fine.
SP: I don’t know. [Laughs] When is this airing?
LW: [Laughs] Um, whenever so yeah just say no. And we can just move on…
SP: Well, okay. No, I can’t tell you anything. But I highly suggest that people go check out War on Women’s social media (Facebook | Twitter | Instagram) as soon as they hear this episode. How about that?
LW: [Excited noises]
LW: In addition to the War on Women stuff, I’ve seen that you do a pretty mean David Lee Roth. [Both laugh] Are there any other genres of genres of music that you’d be keen on doing in the future?
SP: You know what I’ve always wanted to do? I’ve always wanted to do like a wedding band, like just like a Sade cover band for weddings. I would love, love, love to do Sade. Every now and again, I think like when the next time I go to Fest, “Oh, I should do Veruca Salt cover band, you know so I can play guitar again!” cause it’s been so long since I’ve been in a band playing guitar and then I just get too lazy and I just don’t do it! [laughs]
I think the only reason that the Van Halen cover band came about is because I was talking to Jordan [Olds] from Two Minutes to Late Night about it and he’s a doer, you know? it’s like if you have a funny idea he actually makes it happen. Whereas I’m like ‘Oh, that’s a funny idea…Anyway’. [Laughs] But he was actually has like “No, we’re doing this. Are you coming to New York to rehearse?” and I was like, “I guess I am! Okay, fine”.
And of course it’s a bit easier to just kind of show up and sing, than it is to… I don’t know, just the mental baggage of having a guitar and play the notes right, and “Oh, is my amp okay?” I can just show up and sing and I can be like 80% good and it’s fine. [Laughs] So that’s what made that cover band possible for a little while.
LW: Can you see yourself playing any guitar in any future War on Women tracks?
SP: I don’t think it’s necessary when we have two other guitar players. I did…I started to write Silence is the Gift off the last record Capture the Flag. That something that I wrote and Brooks fleshed out, and then this there’s a new song on the new record that I’m not talking about that I wrote a long time ago, like over a decade ago, and we’re using it on the album. So, I don’t know. It’s not my hobby, I guess. My hobby is telling people about safer spaces and bystander intervention right now [Laughs].
LW: Are there any other bands that you recommend that people check out from either a musical or lyrical of perspective for people that are into what you’re putting out?
SP: I am terrible at this. Okay, I am terrible at this at this game. The second someone says, “What are some bands?” I basically forget every band that ever existed. I can’t. My brain thinks it’s a pop quiz and it gets mad, so I would love to email you a list later when I can think about it at my leisure. You can put in the notes or something, but I don’t know. I listen to a lot of different kinds of stuff, and I would be really interested to maybe really think hard about what has been influencing me for the new record.
But I think I listened to a lot of Kacey Musgraves before we recorded and I love G.L.O.S.S and Petrol Girls, who we’ve toured with, are great. But I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know.
LW: Have you ever heard of a band called Svalbard *(see Ed. note) from the UK?
SP: Oh, I don’t think so.
LW: Okay, they are kind of punk but a little bit more post-hardcore, post-metal. But if you look at a lot of the song titles are very similar to ones that you would be writing.
SP: Oh really?
LW: I might send it to you though because they’d be similar from a lyrical point of view.
SP: Please do!
LW: I think I had one more question as I just scroll down here…
SP: Okay! Bring it on down.
LW: I said, I think before we started recording, I absolutely loved seeing you down here down under for your brief, too brief, Australian tour. I know it’s probably gonna be a little while before you’re able to make it back down here again, but the next time you’re down here, do you have a to do list already of things that you want to do that you weren’t able to do the first time?
SP: We hit it hard the first time! We checked off so many boxes, I’ll tell you what! Because when you’re traveling from America to places like, Australia. A band like us, we don’t assume that we’re going to get to come back. We’re not the biggest band, obviously, and so you just feel so grateful and lucky that you get to go there in the first place. And I think we were like, “We got to make the most of this”. We got to do all the things: so we saw koalas they saw kangaroos, we went to the beach. But I guess that’s kind of the biggest stuff right? It’s the beach and the kangaroos? [Laughs]
But I mean my favorite day, I think, was going to the beach. Having some… might’ve even been like Mexican food or something, and having some awesome cocktails and sitting by the water and just kind of relaxing—that doesn’t happen a lot on tour in general. There’s not a ton of days to relax and so getting to do that was lovely. And so I’m happy to just do a repeat of the things we’ve already done because they are so great. [Laughs]
LW: Well, I know as you said it’s not probably real often you’re going to get the chance to do it. But I am very keen for next time.
SP: Hey, you and me both, you know.
LW: It’s been awesome talking to you. Is there anything else that you wanted to plug or anything else that you wanted everyone to know about who may be watching this?
SP: I think if you’re interested in making spaces safer, wherever you go, definitely pick up my book Making Spaces Safer. It’s on AK Press and you can get an electronic copy really cheap and I know it might seem like a weird time if everyone’s still kind of isolating a little bit. I don’t know exactly what it’s like for you there right now, but it’s still scary here. And so we’re still trying to stay indoors as much as possible. But now is the time to learn all that stuff so that when we all can gather again safely, you’ve already got it down, you don’t have to guess. So yeah, I’d say snag my book for super cheap and/or look out for the new War on Women record coming out this Fall very soon!
LW: Very exciting!
LW: You’re also on a compilation that got released today, too.
SP: Yeah, we were very very honoured to be asked to be part of it. It’s a lot of great bands and it’s raising money for the Movement for Black Lives and it’s super cool. It’s doing well so far. It’s gotten a bit of attention and it’s just obviously a really great cause and we submitted our song Anarcha which is off the last record Capture the Flag, which definitely is topical to the subject.
LW: As I read the lyrics I was looking at the cover art and thought “Jeez, this is perfect”.
SP: Yeah, it’s great. It’s a great cause, great bands. So happy to be part of it.
LW: That’s wonderful. Shawna, thank you so much for your time that you’ve taken with us today. Your night, our mid-morning I guess?
SP: Yeah, good morning!
LW: Thank you! So I wish you all the safety, wish you all the best, all the success with the band and Safer Spaces and everything going forward, and I really appreciate your time, best of luck to you! your time best of luck to you.
SP: Thank you so much Scott. I appreciate it.
LW: Not a problem. Take care!
*Ed. note: Please take care if you search for Svalbard, as some serious allegations against the owner of the band’s previous label were made public after the interview was recorded.
